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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:41:19 GMT
Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by BrianS on Aug 18th, 2002, 11:22pm
This is a parcel of really good reflective and objective self examination Chuck. That is what I personally got out of it by reading your words anyway. your thoughts on filtering out the bad have taken me a quantum leap in looking at and acknowledging some of the good things that kept me in for so long.
The truth is there were many positive relationships and associations that went along with my years of involvement. They were all people oriented, group consciousness, oneness of vision and mission experiences, good training for the development of personal commitment and growth.
I learned from my experiences how be a good leader when I had to take charge and also how to follow humbly and let go to the good of the order. I learned from the giving of satsang experience good public speaking skills and I also learned how to listen and acknowledge others when they shared.
I learned how to deepen my friendships and relationships with people by speaking the truth from my heart. these are just some of the positives that come to mind, there are many others. maybe I would have learned these things elsewhere, but the fact is I learned them in my journey through the cult through my experiences and the people that I met and cared about.
I have to acknowledge that fact truthfully, even though the premise and the personality of the cult turned out to be flawed, I can still be angry about that. Time has healed me to the point now where the people and the valuable life lessons of those years for me remain completely real and valid.
Your post made me realize that I have to be honest about that Chuck, without filtering or separating but by balancing the good from the bad of those years holding what is near and dear to me, folding the flawed pages in my book no longer worth reading.
I am just happy that I can finally escape the clutches of all of that rot without invalidating my life and experiences of the last 3 decades entirely.
The other really great thing is that I continue to grow today even in a more honest and fullfilling way through the sharing of who I was in the past and who I am becoming today by finding my way through the maze with the many wonderful people who have braved thier way out of the cult and have lit the path before me.
I just want to thank all of you for your courage and honesty, I would not have made it had you not been there to inspire me to really look truly and deeply at myself and ask honest questions, speak openly and see beyond the cult and M.
The good, the bad, and filters... Post by ChuckS on Aug 19th, 2002, 04:24am
Hi Brian, nice to see you here!
You know, when Erika Anderson said on her website, that she thought ex-students of Maharaji were "filtering out the good", I thought that was so outrageous. Wasn't the truth really, that premies were just filtering out the bad?
But then I tried to see it from the point of view of current premies. They have stuck with M & K for years, because they percieve that they are getting some benefit out of it. Then they are faced with accusations and allegations about their beloved Master. The Master offers them nothing to help them sort it out, just warnings to never question His purity, to leave no doubt in their minds, and not ask him questions. But there are plenty of people who ARE asking questions. And people who do ask questions may get answers, and may eventually feel compeled to make a choice. What is a premie to do?
"The ex-students of Maharaji are filtering out the good". That it the best they can come up with. All things considered, it's not suprising. They don't want to acknowledge the bad, so they just accuse us of filtering out the good. Outrageous? Yes. Hard to understand? Well... no. I can understand it, without actually agreeing with it.
But then, wanting complete truthfulness, I also asked myself, "Is it true? Do ex-premies filter out the good?" And I would have to say that sometimes yes, we do. Espeically on the ex-forum. It's not really suprising though. There, we explore and deconstruct things that we would never have allowed ourselves to do as premies. After years of devotion and servitude and not questioning, we go the oppostite direction, perhaps even an extream, for a time.
Learning the truth, the larger picture, can be painful; there can be feelings of betrayal and anger. And like a divorce, when you are in the throws of it, you forget what it was like to be in love with the partner you are divorcing; you only feel the anger and the pain, and you can become obsessed by it. Sometimes the ex-forum is like that, and sure, we filter out the good. We're only human.
So we want the truth, we decide we want to see the whole, larger picture. So we open our eyes and face all this ugly stuff we didn't want to see, and it hurts. And good an bad things come out of that.
But then at some point, I think most of us just want to heal. We just want to pick up the pieces, clean up the mess, put our house in order and embrace happiness again, without wearing blinders. And that is where I think we need to remember again, that in our quest for the truth, we said we wanted to see the WHOLE picture. And that does mean, not filtering out the good. I think it means, not filtering out ANYTHING.
Some exes have said about exes who still meditate, things like "Oh, I suppose they have to cling to something, rather than admit to themselves that they just wasted 20 or 30 years of their lives on nothing".
I could just dismiss that as cynical, but I suppose, from the standpoint of somebody who left years ago, that might sound sensible. Since they say they never got anything out of it, and they DID leave, it might be hard to see it any other way.
But for those of us who stayed, I think there were many things we "got" out of it. Even if only in our minds, even if only from our misplaced faith and beliefs. Our minds may have been deluded, but many of our hearts were sincere, and that faith, however misplaced, may have helped us through tough times. That faith itself may have helped us more than any greedy satguru did. And it's still a part of us; it's just up to us now what we put it in.
I've had a good look at the bad, and acknowleged that. Now I want to learn from that, pick up the pieces, and move on. And that means looking at and acknowleging the GOOD too! Looking at the whole thing, good and bad, and finding that balance to learn from it all and move forward. It feels a lot better to look at it all, and not just parts. To acknowlege the whole of it, and feel whole again.
Now when are those premies going to start looking at the whole thing, and stop "filtering out the bad"?
And also... Post by ChuckS on Aug 19th, 2002, 04:54am
Brian, you said:
"I am just happy that I can finally escape the clutches of all of that rot without invalidating my life and experiences of the last 3 decades entirely.
The other really great thing is that I continue to grow today even in a more honest and fullfilling way through the sharing of who I was in the past and who I am becoming today by finding my way through the maze with the many wonderful people who have braved thier way out of the cult and have lit the path before me."
That reminds me of Hamzens comments, about reintergating himself. I feel as if there was a sort of restrictive box maharaji taught the premies to think in. All your thoughts had to fit in that box somehow; the box was the terms in which you could see things. Trying to see things outside of those terms ("You NEED a Master to save you, ect.") was never encouraged ("Never doubt, don't ask questions"). But once freed from that box, a whole new world opens up for us. Free from the box, free to ask questions, free to learn, discover, explore, and understand. I hope that's the sort of stuff we can talk about here.
Thanks Chuck Post by Robyn on Aug 19th, 2002, 8:05pm
Dear Chuck, It took me so long to first register and then have time to write to you. I read part of this thread quite some time ago and wanted to say something to this quote:
"I can forgive him, and still not condone what he's done. Forgiving him doesn't make him any less accountable for what he's done. He will spend the rest of his life dealing with or trying to avoid dealing with that. But forgiving him frees me to claim my good back. A bond of hatred is like a bond of love turned upside down. It still binds. Forgivness is a way of letting go. Letting go, in order to be able to accept something better."
I was in a pretty intense/productive spurt in dealing with a family issue that has been too long pushed aside. One of my big problems with it all is trying to forgive someone who isn't involved in the process. This part of your post brought tears to my eyes, it was speaking to me if you know what I mean. I copied this part of your post and put it with the writings I've done on the issue as that is how I process stuff. I hope you see this even though it is so late to the conversation.
I have found that my time with m was short and mostly fun but what I have in common with the people I've met on these forums is very interesting and my presence has helped me so much to work through a lot of things about myself. I have enjoyed reading this thread, as, I see, many have. Love, Robyn
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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:41:31 GMT
Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by Crispy on Aug 20th, 2002, 2:56pm
This thread is amazing - i luv it, and am religiously saving these to file to read again
just want to add some of my thoughts on faith - a big topic for me, too. There was a moment when i was having a tough time in the ashram (early 80's) when a visiting instructor sensed this without me discussing anything with her, and simply said to me out of the blue "Faith in GMJ is what will put you across the top every time". At that time I was grateful to hear that - it gave me strength/encouragement to continue.
However, slowly over many years my attitudes about faith in general have gone around a major bend. That faith I felt, no matter where it's placed - it could be on mj or an anything - is really just myself diving for strength that's accessible somewhere deep down in my own character/psyche/myself. The benefit of resourcing that sense of personal strength & power really had nothing to do with the object of faith, i.e. god or any external power, force or being at all.
Take that example of the reversal of cancer. The reality could have been that remission was going to happen unexpectedly anway without a box of splinters or anything at all. But the attribution was projected onto his faith in god. Many people with cancer don't go into remission at all. And eventually everyone does die in the end. I know because both my parents AND a stepmother all died within eight years during my teens. I can't possibly for a second believe that's because they or I didn't pray with the right faith to the right thing. Things happen because they happen and that's all there's to it - lobbing ideas of good and bad and what if's on top of everthing is such a waste of time. To be able to see things as they really are is my personal quest with a vengeance.
But there is one thing I still have faith and belief in - myself, my own inner resources, my own virtues and my own little ‘wisdoms' gained from just plain living, that will carry me through if I dig for them, my determination not to let my own worst fears and self-imposed limitations get the better of me, and that's knowing not everything will always turn out as little ol' me likes it either!
Leaving as much of k and religious beliefs I can behind, I still occasionally serendipitously find myself experiencing the awareness of the moment where everything clicks for me. I still feel gratitude for feeling it again each time, and that's without trying for it in anyway, or wondering when the next ‘moment' will hit me. I refuse to. By comparison i can see how that only contaminates it and instantly turns it into a useless, controlling, religious practice. It's much more free, pure and untethered to just enjoy those moments whenever they do hit. I still enjoy those bouts of altered brain chemistry for a change every now and then, without counting & comparing them, getting greedy for more or chasing after them like an anal idiot studying the methodology of arriving at those states.
Maybe I still mildly ‘believe' that this state is in essence what all the past and current so-called masters are describing in all their own ways. But I like what Brian said - in the end I end up alone walking my own path. I like it that way - it's bittersweetly unique to only me. It's now my own book I'm writing, page by page. Which is what I always wanted anyway, and thought the big K was the ticket - what a tricky trap....
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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:43:18 GMT
Good! Post by ChuckS on Aug 20th, 2002, 3:05pmRobyn, I'm glad you felt helped by those ideas about forgivness. I wish I could take credit for them, but I actually read them in other places. But they rang true for me, and I often repeat stuff other's say that I've found helpful, in case it's helpful to someone else. I think it was Louise Hay who once said, that we can think of the word "forgive" as meaning to "Give For"; it means we are willing to GIVE up feeling angry, FOR the purpose, or benefit, of making room in our lives for something better in its place. The funny thing about forgiveness is, we think it's about the other person, and what they did. But actually I think it's more about ourselves, and claiming back our peace of mind. Forgiveness needn't even involve the other person at all. And a good thing that is too! If forgiveness depended on the cooperation of others, we'd all be in sh*t street! The mechanics of using this forum are different and unfamiliar at first, but as you use it, it becomes easy very fast. Once you understand the layout, it's quite simple to use. Occasionally the server will slow down, but I just leave it and come back later if that happens, and it doesn't happen very often. Forum Seven is so de-constructive in it's nature, that it gets a bit dry once you have done most of your deconstructing and sorting out. I'm glad it's there for that purpose, many folks still need that, but I've gotten tired of talking and thinking about the Goober so much. I'm hoping that here, we can perhaps do some re-constructing, or just talk about some of the things that help us in life, instead of all the things that went wrong. I've started off here by talking about some of the so-called "positive" aspects of being in the cult, because there were many things that we percieved that way that kept many of us involved for so long. Much of that was, I believe, simply the faith and hope WE put into it, or believed in. Seeing and understanding that, can be very empowering, to help us take our own power back, instead of feeling like just a helpless victim or a dumb person who was duped. It was our longing for happiness that attracted us to M&K in the first place, and I think that longing is fine. So we made some mistakes. Now we know. But that's in the past now, and we can't change it. But we live in the present, and we can always make changes there. So I say, let's learn from the mistakes of the past, but not get stuck there; let's keep going for the happiness. Claiming back our peace of mind Post by Francesca on Aug 20th, 2002, 4:39pmThanks Chuck, Hamzen, BrianS, Robyn and Crispy -- all -- for joining in. I am really enjoying this thread immensely. Destruction is a good thing, but so is construction. All necessary for balance. The human organism, for example, at least in my overly simple view of the science of it, is building itself up and tearing itself down constantly. I think it's a process that keeps everything going. Too much construction without the deconstruction brings us into sand castles and aiery faiery towers in the clouds. But destruction without construction will make us go down like old John Henry. die with a hammer in my hand lawd lawd die with a hammer in my hand. A valiant and tragic hero, trying to beat the steam engine, but the old heart couldn't take it. I agree with so much that has been said by everyone that I don't know where to start, but so true what Crispy said that the faith in something else is actually faith in our own resources, mistakenly projected onto something else. And Crispy's comments on healing are so true. I do energy healing work, but really it is only assisting a person in rallying a person's own resources. I give them nothing except support, which I hope I can give to anyone who comes my way. When someone is going to die, they are going to die, and it has nothing to do with anything but the process of birth, old age, sickness, and death, that is inevitable. That's why some of this new age anti-aging stuff is so off base. Age is not a disease! It is a fact and a process! I'm a 53-year old crone, and I like it, I like it, yes I do. (apologies to Mick Jagger) I also agree with Chuck so much about forgiveness having more to do with me claiming back my own peace of mind. It doesn't excuse what someone else has done, and to ask me to forget what came down is to ask me to relinquish the lesson I just learned the hard way. It has precious little to do with the other(s) in a way -- and a lot more to do with me letting go without sugar coating, looking through rose colored glasses, or putting a smile on a pile of sh*te. Coming to this point has allowed me to communicate better with the few premies (and ex-premie apologists) that I know, because I don't have to knock down every expression of positivity about Maharaji and my years as a premie in order to feel like I can breathe and be honest with myself. xoxoxox Francesca Hamzen this print function is brilliant Post by Francesca on Aug 21st, 2002, 12:04amI chose print, and then was able to highlight and select all the posts in the thread and save them in Microsoft Word. We're up to 23 pages. Yikes! --xoxo F Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by ChuckS on Aug 21st, 2002, 03:29amCrispy: Have you ever heard of Fakir Chand? (his website: www.geocities.com/truthis_myname/faqir/faqir-home.html) He has been called the most honest of all gurus. In his writtings, he talks honestly about devotees and the faith they place in the guru. He says the guru can be a total fraud, even a criminal, and yet the FAITH of the devotee can cause the devotee to have incredible experiences, that have nothing, in reality, to do with the guru. Crispy, you said: "Take that example of the reversal of cancer. The reality could have been that remission was going to happen unexpectedly anway without a box of splinters or anything at all. But the attribution was projected onto his faith in god. Many people with cancer don't go into remission at all. And eventually everyone does die in the end. I know because both my parents AND a stepmother all died within eight years during my teens. I can't possibly for a second believe that's because they or I didn't pray with the right faith to the right thing. Things happen because they happen and that's all there's to it - lobbing ideas of good and bad and what if's on top of everthing is such a waste of time. To be able to see things as they really are is my personal quest with a vengeance. It's possible that things that were going to happen anyway do get attributed to faith. But I think their is a real body-mind connection between what we believe and how that affects our health. There have been scientific studies that show that emotional well-being (which is strongly influenced by "faith" and beliefs) does have an effect on health. For instance, doctors in africa have watched men who believe they have been "cursed" by a witch doctor, wither away and die. Medically, the doctor can find nothing wrong with the man. But he can also see the man IS dying. The dying man can recover, if he believes the curse is lifted. The witch doctor holds that power, because the man believes he does. If the witchdoctor curses someone who does not believe, there is no effect. Even in modern medicine, we have the placebo effect. The power of belief and it's effects on the body can be amazing. But it's not always simple. There are so many factors that affect health, and as you say, we all die eventually. You said about the deaths in your family: "I can't possibly for a second believe that's because they or I didn't pray with the right faith to the right thing." I don't believe in the "right faith" in the "right thing", because I don't know what those are, but whole wars have been fought by people who believed they DID know. I do think that what we believe INFLUENCES much of what we experience in our lives, health and otherwise. What we believe creates our perception, and effects our emotions, and our health, for good and bad, even when believing in things that are not true or real. But there are lots of other factors. Things happen to us. Using faith or belief in a positive way may give us influence over what happens in our lives, or how we deal with what does happen, but it isn't the same as having total control. There are plenty of things that happen in life that I just don't understand. When the AIDS epidemic hit here, all these young people died. It was devestating. I sure don't have all the answers, but the power of faith and how it works with the mind is still facinating, and something I would like to understand better. You said: "But there is one thing I still have faith and belief in - myself, my own inner resources, my own virtues and my own little ‘wisdoms' gained from just plain living, that will carry me through if I dig for them, my determination not to let my own worst fears and self-imposed limitations get the better of me, and that's knowing not everything will always turn out as little ol' me likes it either!" I like those little "wisdoms" that we learn in life. We earn them. And they're great to share. I'll take help from wherever I can find it.
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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:44:31 GMT
Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by Crispy on Aug 21st, 2002, 12:08pm
Hi Chuck. Thanks, I just checked Fakir's site and it looks interesting. Another guru who impressed me with his honesty was Krishnamurti, whose background was similar to Rawat's, but unlike Rawat, had all the character and honesty to come clean with his devotees. My attitude re all the gurus/cults who aspire to the ‘greatness within' is even though it matters little how & with who I became aware of that, there comes a point beyond which the ball game belongs back in my own court, and to pursue a master-student relationship only becomes increasingly dysfunctional, along with the inability to see things with balance & objectivity.
But I think their is a real body-mind connection between what we believe and how that affects our health. ...The power of belief and it's effects on the body can be amazing. .....What we believe creates our perception, and effects our emotions
This is so true, too. If I were ever to be diagnosed with cancer, I'd want to face it head on with courage, learn & accept the score, and do whatever I can to help by exploring the effects of different treatments, diet, lifestyle, environment, etc. I think it's important to keep one's mind open to the possibilities, but at the same time realizing nothing at all might work in the end despite doing everything I could. There's a balance to be reached.
There's a saying I like -- god helps those who help themselves. But the other extreme is someone doing nothing at all, shunning help altogether, and copping out by relying totally on faith in an external power (which I think is unreal). The worst would be to to just give up altogether. This was my father's case in the end which was sad to witness. He'd been thru radiation/chemotherapy, remission & resurfacing metastasis later. He also went to the Tijuana clinic in the ‘70s when the peach kernel extract was a popular treatment. That helped for awhile - they had him on a health diet as well and he seemed to look great, had good energy and enjoyed a holiday on the beach. But a year later the metastasis resurfaced again. This time he had no fight in him at all. He reverted to living off donuts and coca cola and in his last days in the hospital was constantly high on morphine. So, the treatment in Tijuana probably prolonged his life by a year or so, and his giving up in the end probably lubricated the waterslide down.
I've also been reading a bit on cognitive therapy. It also reinforces what you said in the sense that if we could catch all the limiting stuff we're constantly telling ourselves and turn it around, examine it in a more objective clear light, we'd see how often we shortchange ourselves. So again, I know how important a good attitude as well as clear-reasoning is (for oneself as well as those around).
Re forgiveness - it IS a big step in letting go of stuff that could just go on eating us until we do. Yet I wish the information on EPO could have been out there when I first heard of K in ‘73 (at least about the techniques, gurus and rawat family lineage), but of course a lot happened later. Given Rawat's background & upbringing which wasn't his fault, the only thing I really hold against him is his inability to be honest with his followers (like Krishnamurti, Fakir Chand) and his trade for megalomania. But the forgiveness part for me is realizing what's done is done - I'm just glad I was finally able to see what it really was. Some may never.
Another tidbit 4U. A few yrs ago I invited a friend to an intro event who wrote a thesis on cults for her psych degree. She didn't really say much to me at the time other than that she felt high enough already. But when I was talking with her after I left last fall, she said that's good I had the courage to examine it and leave it, but it's also good to take the good I've learned from it as well and move on in my own life with it. Not getting too caught up in just trashing everything behind me feels healthy to me also, like going for the clean-mouth taste instead
And yes, that AIDS epidemic. I knew a premie with a beautiful soul in the 70's who was living briefly in the ashram, then one morning out of the blue, was gone - no one knew where he went and never heard from him again. Then in ‘98 I heard he had gone to San Fran, contracted AIDS and later went back to his parents' home to die. It was so sad to hear.
I think, in reflection, there's no way around it - not everything in life is going to be rosy or be the *perfect play according to Crispy*. But, like you said, I'll also keep walking forward and reaching for the goodies that are still there to be gathered.
all the best,
Crispy
Healing and believing Post by Francesca on Aug 22nd, 2002, 12:32am
Chuck, I'm glad you mentioned the mind-body connection, as I only addressed it briefly, and you went into detail on it from many angles. The placebo effect is a strong one. I'm doing four case studies on the use of aromatic oils for a class I'm taking. They are blind studies; I'm making blends for people and not telling them what they are for, i.e. what I was trying to accomplish in making the blends. I just get the people's feedback and make sure they smell nice as well. If they just like the smell of them and it's a nice moment in their day, that will be good enough for me.
But back to the mind-body connection: of course, some of us talk about the mind-body-spirit connection as well. One simple definition of spirit -- that I hope is palatable or at least not totally objectionable to some -- is that it is the intangible part of myself that is inextricably intertwined with my mind and body, and yet seems to be connected to everything else as well. I can see it as energy, but again, it is never totally separate from me.
One comment on the mind-body connection – leaving the "spirit" part out of the mix for those who don't want or need to see it as part of the mix – is that it is a tricky thing. Andrew Weil wrote an interesting book about it called "Spontaneous Healing," and there are hundreds of other theories out there. The bottom line is that there seems to be some benefit to the body in bringing in positive states of mind, and certainly the mind has an effect on the body. One does not always heal, of course, or get a remission out of the effect. Nor does one necessarily kill oneself with negative thinking either, or a lot of us would have died young!
The tricky part is that when someone is for certain going to die, or there is nothing more that they can do really, stressing the fact that positive mind-body approaches can bring healing is almost an accusation that the person with the illness or affliction is not doing enough. We cannot always heal, nor are we meant to. This is a very tricky area. There is a certain point at which the best mind-body approach is acceptance of WHATEVER. After my dad died of cancer I read a book by Steven and Ondria Levine called "Who Dies" that was very helpful, as well as Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' book on the subject. (Although some have said that Kubler-Ross eschewed her earlier writings, it is my understanding that she merely eschewed a strict view of the steps of the process that she had laid out.) I tried to read "Who Dies" before my dad died, but he went too quickly.
I also remember that when a premie in San Francisco we called "Huggy Bear" died of cancer, he went through quite a process. He had a remission of cancer. After that he took a stressful job. The cancer came back. Whether the job brought it on is anybody's guess.
During the course of the disease, he had several remissions that were called miraculous by the doctors. I can relate to what you said about your father, Crispy. Sometimes getting a remission or a temporary reprieve comes at a high price. Huggie's wife, his premie friends, and the Shanti Foundation were a big help to him. At one point, as a war veteran, he was feisty and fighting the whole thing. But he reached a point where he said, I don't know if I should fight it, or give in to it. I'm willing to surrender to whatever is appropriate here – I just need to know what it is! Some weeks later he died in peace, with his wife Joycie by his side.
Don't even get me started on the medications. At one point, it wasn't until Huggie ended up in the veteran's hospital and they straightened out his meds that he could get into a comfortable state of mind about the whole thing. I know that some of the doctors do their best, but for many of them it is all body. The patient's mind is also trying to work for its highest good through all the meds. Not always an easy process!
Enough to chew on for now.
xoxoxoxo
Francesca
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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:46:00 GMT
Mind, body and emotions... Post by ChuckS on Oct 3rd, 2002, 2:30pm
Here it is, more than a month later - I've been really busy!
Spirit is such a difficult, nebulous word. It's hard to really know what people mean when they use that word, which is why I'm very reluctant to use it. I can see that you understand that, by the way you carefully spoke of it.
I find that when someone says "body mind and spirit", the word "spirit" often seems to refer to emotions, feelings and imagination. That's not to say everything we feel is imagination, but imagination often charges our feelings. We may interpret people, places and events with our imaginations, filling in the bank spots with our imaged-in interpretations, and that charges our emotions, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.
Once we believe something is true, wether it really is or not, wether it's even possible to know if it's true or not; when we accept something as the truth, it BECOMES the truth for US, and the emotions bond with that and act on it, conciously and subconciously, and the consequences of that can be good or bad.
There was a Philipino nurse here in San Francisco, who was diagnosed with breast cancer. She had a double Mastectomy, and chemo therapy. The cancer spread anyway, and the doctors told her there was no hope; medical science had done all it could. She was given a death sentence.
This woman was a Catholic. Her congregation got together and brought her a plane ticket to Lourdes, France. So she went to this Holy Catholic shrine, where many people go to experience healing. She ate one of the leaves from the trees, and drank some water from a spring or fountian, and did whatever people do when they go there. Then she came home.
Here cancer went into remission. It was a miracle!
Now, does this mean that the God of Catholisizm is special? Or that Lourdes is a special, magical, Holy place?
Or is it more likely that the pilgrimage to Lourdes captured her Catholic imagination; that the love, goodwill and good thoughts (prayers) of her fellow congregants who bought her that plane ticket charged her emotionally and supported her belief (faith). She started to expect a miracle, believed it on a deep emotional level, and it came to pass for her? I tend to believe that is what happened.
Even a blind faith that is seemingly irrational to some, can have good effects. I'm not one to believe in Catholic fairy tales, yet I would have to say I would think twice before stomping on this woman's faith. She used Catholisim as an emotional trigger to help her, and it did. She would say God healed her, I would say her faith in God, her belief on a deep emotional level, healed her. Or at least aided her. Some might say, the doctors were wrong, and she would have healed anyway. I'd be willing to entertain that possibility, but the problem is, how can we PROVE it?
If someone isn't healed, does it mean they are doing something wrong? Just not thinking right? That's not what I was saying, though it can sound like that if the idea is over simplified. I don't know that it's ever that simple, there are many factors affecting health. I can't know what other people really think or feel. I do know that perfectly wonderfull people do get sick and die. And we ALL die eventually, as you've said. At some point we all have to accept the inevitable.
I had an uncle I was very fond of, who died of Lou Gerigs disease. It was a slow and horrible illness. I know he would never have choosen that, and to tell him his thinking was responsible for it would have been cruel, not to mention, just plain unhelpful. But noticing how your thinking afects your health, it's about empowering, not blaming.
My understanding of the body-mind connection is, that becoming aware of your thoughts and how they effect your feelings/emotions can effect your overall wellbeing, and boost your bodies natural tendency to heal itself. It's difficult to know with certainty how much negative thinking contributes to bad health. You can't know what another thinks, or actually believes on a deep emotional level. People are often not even aware of their own thinking, or their subconcious, emotional beliefs. Even then, their thoughts may only be one of many contributing factors. And between old age and wear and tear, parts of the body just wear out. That's natural and inevitable.
(continued next post)
Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by ChuckS on Oct 3rd, 2002, 3:44pm
(Part 2, continued from previous post)
In the case of any illness, I think it helps to examine all the factors that could be affecting the persons health; environment, diet, and that nebulous emotional/feeling/imagination/belief area, call it the subconsious, the psyche, spirit, whatever. It's worth examining all of it, to see if there is something that is out of balance that can be brought back into balance to aid in the healing process.
Sometimes though, it seems like people are simply going to die, and the kindest thing you can do is let them accept what is going to happen, and help them through that in whatever way you can.
Death is a great teacher, even to the healthy. Death gives life greater meaning, and remebering it often puts things in life into their proper perspective. Sometimes when I'm upset about something, I will ask myself, "If I knew I was going to die tomorrow, would I care about this at all?" The answer is usually "no". Suddenly the thing that was bothering me has no power to bother me at all (this works especially well for annoying things people say on the forums ). Isn't it funny how death itself, is a part of life? Not forgetting death helps keep me focused on what is important to me in my life.
Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by Thorin on Oct 4th, 2002, 08:15am
Boy, Chuck I am sure glad I have this thread on email notify else I may have missed your latest post.
Can't really add a lot except to confirm that, for me, the emotional make-up I CHOOSE to adapt at any particular point in time does affect me totally. Right down to my health, my thought processes and dare I say my ability to percieve spirit - whatever that is.
The health, body, mind, spirit thing is a tricky one. My wife is into homeopathy and for me homeopathy does not make a lot of sense from a scientific perspective. I often discuss this point with her but I do recognise that the faith part must have a part to play in it - and for many a major part in the eventual healing. But like you said all very difficult to prove. It is a circular arguement or perhaps is it a virtuous circle?
Fran and you raise the subject of death. Huh! Another tricky area, filled with a lot of taboos. Yet something intrinsically therapeutic. Not of course sudden and unexpected death nor death through lingering and painful illness, but death that comes after recognition of complettness, of having fullfilled something essential. I dunno if you guys read Aldous Huxley? Well in one of his books (The Island?) there is a beautiful chapter where this guy is dying but fully recognises and welcomes the iniaviability. Grasps the opportunity as it were. It is many years since I read it and can't remember if it written in the first person or whatever, but very inspirational.
Oops sorry, western cultural conditioning does not allow us to discuss this subject. Blast, so I better stop right now.
It is sunny here in London, almost like the flowers are budding, I feel good today but tons of work so gotta rush.
Glad I stopped by here
Thorin
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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:47:30 GMT
Aldous Huxley's "Island" Post by ChuckS on Oct 4th, 2002, 3:34pmHi Thorin: "email notify", eh? Maybe I should try that. This forum has a bunch of slick features I haven't even explored yet. I loved Aldous Huxley's book "Island", it's one of my favorite books. The people on the Island had such a practical, sensible approach to life and how to live, and even how to die. In the world most of us live in, there seems to be so much cultural/religious junk and crazy concepts in the way of living effective, happy lives. It's interesting what you said about homeopathy. My sister is into accupunture, and I have trouble embracing it, because it does not seem to be based on sound science to me, at least not any science I understand. Yet, people swear by it. In China, they even perform surgery without knock-out drugs, using accupuncture instead. Many people claim that accupunture has helped them when everything else they tried failed. So, I try to keep an open mind to alternative medicine. Even western medicine has a faith factor. I read a story in Unity Magazine, about a man who lived in Hawaii. He was driving on a freeway there, with his car window open. A helecopter passed by overhead, that was being used to spray Malathion poison on crops. The spray mechanisim had was turned off, but one of the spigots didn't close, and was still spraying. So this man got a blast of this poison in his face, through his car window. It made him sick for a few days. Then, he started having monsterous, debilitating migrane headaches. He went to a doctor, who performed a series of tests, including a cat-scan. The doctor eventually diagnosed this man as having Multiple Sclerousis. The doctor presented his evidence, explaining to this man how it proved irrefutably that he had MS. The doctor patiently explained to him how he would eventually become more and more crippled, and end up in a wheelchair in seven years time, and eventually die from the disease. The doctor said he woud to everything possible to help make his life comfortable till the end came. The man left the doctors office, stunned. He decided right then that he was going to go into complete DENIAL about the whole thing. He never went back to that doctor. He pretended he never went. He did affirmations for his health, and tried his best to forget about it. So what happened? The headaches continued; he was afraid to go to another doctor, lest the MS diagonsis be given him again, so he just lived with it. He found that, over time, the headaches occured less freaquently, and were less severe. Seven years later, he was NOT in a wheelchair, and had no symptoms of MS. And to this day he wonders, what would have happened had he believed what the doctor had told him? Was it a miracle? The man was not religious. Was the doctor wrong? How many people get sick and die because they believe a doctor who tells them there is no hope? I've actually met someone who said they were given only three months to live by a doctor... 25 years ago. But instead of believing that doctor, they got another doctor. I'm not against doctors at all, but they are just human beings like the rest of us. Their judgement is not infailable. It's important to be careful about what you believe. I'm just starting to read an interesting book, "Learned Optimism" by Martin E.P. Seligman, which deals a lot with the mind-body connection, as well as optimism, pessimism, and happiness. He claims that he himself was a pessimist, but that anyone can learn to be an optimist, that optimism is an aquired trait. The link on Amazon.com is: www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671019112/qid=1033763689/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0489905-2442418?v=glanceThe weather here is sunny and beautiful, but there is a coolness in the air. Winter is comming. Hopefully with rain. Have you been having drought there? I know the the eastern United States was, but they have gotten rain recently. I gota rush off to work now too. - Chuck Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by Thorin on Oct 4th, 2002, 5:33pm
Hi Chuck Was just having a quick look round the boards before gonna go to bed (it is 11:35pm in London). Just thought I would drop you a one liner. Funnily enough I have had quite a lot of acupuncture over the years and have found that it has worked just great. I have not really thought the scientific basis for some time now but do remember thinking through it before and then it seemed to make sense. My my for the life of me I can't remember how I made sense of it. I guess I will try over the next few days - that will probably lead to a total disbelief in it. On books, thanks for the Seligman link. Never read any of his stuff but understand that there is some good stuff in there. Just hope that it does not contain any of that post hippy, neo-liberal, wishy-washy, lover-dovey stuff that populates the book stores on these subjects these days (yeah please say hi to Pat would ya? ). Also you have inspired me to go out again tomorrow and buy Island to reread. I remember now - it is not since 1972 since I read that book. Yikes my reading list is getting longer and longer. Currently enjoying "Greatest Mathematical Equations" - working through Schrodinger's stuff - what a blast! Gotta get back to the book - erm bed! Hey whats with the New York confusion? - no matter! Cheers Thorin Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by ChuckS on Oct 5th, 2002, 1:06pmAcupuncture is a mystery to me. I would be interested to hear your reasoning in support of it, but I imagine that could be quite involved to explain. I should probably research the subject on the internet thoroughly, but like so many things these days, it's on my list of things I want to do, but I just don't have the time to get around to it, too many other priorities keep asserting themselves. What little I have read about acupuncture didn't make much sense to me; I couldn't see what the puncture points had to do with the anatomy of the body, in any logical way. I must have read "Island" about 10 years ago. I found it very inspiring at the time, it's probably worth a re-read. Another of Huxley's books, "Brave New World" was made into a movie adaptation recently. It was pretty good, better than other screen adaptations I'd seen, although it didn't follow the book exactly. As for "new york confusion", there isn't any. I probably didn't word my question well. I know you are in London, and I was just curious about the weather there. I have relatives on the east coast of the USA, where until very recently they were having a drought. I was just curious if it was affecting you guys "across the pond" in England. Our rainfall here in California was below normal last year, but not enough to call it a drought. It's too early to tell this year, as the rainy season here only starts in the winter months.
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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:49:46 GMT
Re: Subject? Spirit and truth, of course! Post by Francesca on Oct 5th, 2002, 11:57pm
Well, Chuck, back to spirit. You said,
"I find that when someone says "body mind and spirit", the word "spirit" often seems to refer to emotions, feelings and imagination. That's not to say everything we feel is imagination, but imagination often charges our feelings."
For me, this is missing part of the equation. There is also an energy -- at least that's one word for it. And it doesn't have to do with my emotions. There is, simply, something beyond anything I could conjure up, that is not imagination, that is not emotions, that I make contact with. And this contact makes me feel more peaceful, it helps me to be a kinder and less judgmental person, and it helps me to be less needy so that I can be forgiving and giving.
Also an interesting thing to explore, and I'm going to think about it, is that spirit can be perceived. So what is the difference between feelings and perception? Feelings seem to be self-generated and related to emotions and psyche -- certainly not in a vacuum, of course, as they are subject to outside infuences, but as interpreted through our own mental, emotional and physical environment. And yet all these outside experiences change that environment, if we are open. So even the mental/emotional/physical environment is mutable, to some extent.
And with perception, there is a perceiver and a perceived. So at some point, this energy or spirit is perceived. So we might say that the perception can be tainted with emotions, feelings and imagination perhaps, to a greater or lesser degree, depending upon the perceiver and where they are "at" in that particular moment. And yes, where we don't quite understand, in order to come up with something concrete, the imagination can embellish things. But the thing that is perceived cannot be just relegated to totally coming from our own side, i.e. a mere figment of our imaginations, a product self-generated from our own feelings. At least I don't think it can be dismissed so easily. There is something there.
I suppose that's the big debate that rages, of course. People are either totally convinced that there is something there that is a part of us and everything else, or that we and everything else are a part of, a "spirit" that is not merely self-generated -- or they are totally convinced that people who believe or feel that they do perceive spirit are fooling themselves, are engaging in "magical thinking," etc.
I do think that, outside the polarized abolutely YES and absolutely NO views, the biggest problem (if that's a good word for it) lies in the conceptualizing of just WHAT it is, or isn't, and a clinging to those concepts.
Back to accupuncture, my elementary understanding of it is that it has to do with bodily energy meridians that affect various bodily systems, the liver being a primary one in Chinese medicine. So we are talking about a system of medical science that is much older than Western medical science, and still practiced today.
Thanks for starting this thread up again. And yes, as Thorin said, there is a box you can check when you are typing a message that says, "Check this if you wish to be notified of replies to this topic." I only had to do it once, and I am always notified now.
Hope all is well with you, Pat and the doggies.
xoxoxoxo
Francesca
Spirit: the Ubiquitous Ineffable? Post by ChuckS on Today at 2:23pm
Nice to see you back here! It must have seemed like I suddenly dropped the thread a month ago, but truth is I was quite interested in keeping it going, but other stuff makes demands on my time. Often when I'm posting here, I'm neglecting other stuff. Sometimes I just have to stop posting on the forums and play catch-up with all the stuff I've negelcted.
You say: "There is also an energy -- at least that's one word for it. And it doesn't have to do with my emotions. There is, simply, something beyond anything I could conjure up, that is not imagination, that is not emotions, that I make contact with. And this contact makes me feel more peaceful, it helps me to be a kinder and less judgmental person, and it helps me to be less needy so that I can be forgiving and giving."
Now the thing is, can you PROVE that this energy exists? That it isn't just your imagination?
Before it sounds like I'm attacking a belief of yours, let me share something with you.
One of my favorite beliefs is that energy is all there is. Science tells us that only matter and energy exist in the universe. Yet we know matter is not permanent, it never keeps it's form forever. All matter is ultimately converted to energy again.
My favorite theory is, that matter is actually energy, that is "vibrating" at such a slow level, that it appears to take a solid, or physical form and shape. The physical matter's molecular structure is it's "vibration".
Now if energy is really all that exists, and the differences we percieve in physical matter are really just energy vibrating at different speeds, then one could conclude that in a sense, there is only one thing that really exists in the universe; energy. One thing, and we are all a part of it.
I think it's a really cool theory (also not my own; I read it somewhere). I guess you could say I believe it, yet I know I can't PROVE it.
Now this theory also fits in nicely with Hamzen's One Love experience. I also like the One Love experience, and have "felt" it to be true for myself. Yet I can't "prove" it, anymore that I can prove my Only Energy Exists" theory. If I tried to post this as some sort of universal truth on F7 or AG, any number of people with a better education than I have could probably subject my beliefs to a number of analysis which would poke all sorts of holes in my theories. Yet I don't know if they could prove that One Love or Only Engery is NOT true, any more than I can prove that it IS true.
To me, this is kind of what "spirit" is about. I like to call it the "Ubiquitous Ineffable". It's really hard to pin it down; in fact, it's probably impossible to pin it down, which makes it hard to talk about with absolute certainty. So I can FEEL that there is this One Love or One Energy behind everything, but I can't prove that it is nothing more than my imagination.
That itself doesn't even have to be a problem. What is the imagination anyway? Energy? Consiousness? If energy is all that exists, then I suppose imagination is a part of it. (Could imagination actually BE God? )
(continued next post)
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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:49:59 GMT
UB worshipping, part 2 Post by ChuckS on Today at 2:25pm
(part 2 continued)
On some level, I don't really care if I can't prove or explain something. The reality is, life is full of things I can't explain. And if I felt I NEEDED to find an explanation for everything, I'd go insane. It's just not humanly possible to know everything. There are quite of few mysteries in life, and I am content with not being able to unravel all of them. Being content to do that actually makes it possible to enjoy life more. I can't enjoy life while stuggling to know things that I can't possibly know.
So I guess what I am saying is that while I can hear you say that there is an energy that you make contact with, and that contact benefits you in various ways, I have to admit that I am uncomfortable talking about it like it's a fact (despite the fact that on an emotional, feeling level, I could be tempted to agree with you). I also suspect that this perception of energy is something that Maharaji hijacked, and because of it's ubiquitous ineffable nature, is something that could be hijacked by any number of beliefs or concepts. A foundation on which any imaginable thing could be built.
One reason I've been talking so much about faith, belief and imagination in this thread is because they are integral to the Ubiquitous Ineffable. I am also rather horrified how people can believe absolute crap, and total lies, listen to complete lying frauds or criminals, and still have these incredable experiences, created by their own faith in lies and frauds. I think many of us have assumed that only the truth could do that. That's how so many of us got suckered in.
I feel compelled to try to understand how the faith/belief dynamic works, and to NOT align it with what I can prove to not be true or truthful. And yet the Ubiquitous Ineffable can't be proven to be true or not. Can we safely "believe" or have "faith" in it, and enjoy - I'll dare say it: That Feeling or That Place - if we are careful to not "fit it in a box" by tying it to some person, dogma or religion?
I like good vibes; I like to have some mystery, and dare I even say, some "magic" in my life. Love isn't logical or scientific, but it's pretty darn nice! Without love, being human isn't worth much, or at least a very dry experience. So I think what I am asking here is how do I get my nice vibes, and invest my faith in the appreciation and magic of life, without being expoited or suckered or falling into belief systems that have no basis in reality? For me, the "magic" and reality have to co-exist. The only answer I have come up with so far is, that I have to be vigilent. That is where reason and logic come in as my body guards. But when in comes to the Ubiquitous Ineffable, the body guards don't know what to think. So is it safe? It's so easy to think you KNOW something, then the truth is, you decided to believe something, and simply didn't notice when you made that decision.
On a gut level, I think the Ubiquitous Ineffible (hencefore refered to as "UB") IS safe, if you don't put it in a box. To me, that is acceptance of what you can't explain, perhaps acceptance of what you can't really even "know" . But as soon as you start believing things ABOUT the UB, you start down the slippery slope. Right now I just prefer to bask in That Feeling, without attributing it to anyone or anything or really trying to explain it, justify it or put it in a box to present to someone else. I don't even feel compelled prove that it isn't my imagination. Part of me really doesn't care .
Perhaps we should invite the forum atheists to tell us why we are wrong, or perhaps Scott T. could give us a scientific explanation .
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Post by hamzen on Feb 8, 2004 4:51:08 GMT
Proving it Post by Francesca on Today at 5:04pm
As far as proving that energy or spirit exists, I've got no problem with not being able to prove any of it. I do think a problem exists when that very ineffable and personal experience is hijacked by religions and "teachers," who then begin to explain to us what we should "know." I also think that trying to pin it down, make it into universal rules (i.e. applicable to others), religions, etc. is another mistake.
But even feeling any pressure to "prove it" is funny in a way, as is too much reliance on logic and reason. We are so Westernized that, to some extent, we buy into the prevailing mindset of the culture we are born into. Some time way in the future, if there is life on this planet that far in the future, I wonder what will wash out as something that still rings true, and stuff that ends up being seen as pure, silly short-sightedness. I don't want to think I have any idea what that would be, either!
Since I have not recently escaped from a cult, or been in any one cult-like experience for 20+ years, I am not as gun-shy about accepting stuff that cannot be proved, and that cannot, in one sense be "known." But I am gun-shy of "putting it in a box" as you so well put it, and of closing the lid on it.
I sure don't want to argue with a bunch of atheists, as I do not want to argue with anyone who is dead sure that they've got all the answers. I think that is the biggest trap of reason, logic and science. Folks who rely totally on these systems treat it like their "rock" and refute everything that does not fit into their systems, much like fundie Christians treat the Christian bible as their "rock." Since I am not an expert in logic, debate or science, I would be believing these theories, systems and hypotheses as interpreted by folks who are facile in these systems, who explain to me what reality is and what I should think and believe. Just like believing in the spiritual "masters" I would not be thinking or feeling it out myself. A lot of the high-falutin' explanations of things are just another form of baffling me with bullsh*te, since it would take me a lifetime of studying within these systems to figure out whether I'd been "had."
That doesn't mean that I have to close my mind and my heart to outside influences -- they are a necessary stimulation for thought and growth. But I have to be careful not to believe anything I am told, merely on being told something in a convincing manner -- and that includes theories propounded by science and religion, and prevailing theories of pyschology and logic.
Frankly, I'd rather keep my own counsel and, of course, I'd rather not be so sure of anything! I was quite uncomfortable, on the Forum, when I felt I was being pressured into being able to satisfy my critics or being subjected to ridicule, and expected to abandon my "silly" views in light of their assessments of my "errors in thinking." Crimey! The arrogance of someone thinking they could be the judge and jury of that! Unmitigated gall is another word for it. When you have a bunch of cult-scarred folks who were used to being persuaded into M's version of the truth, they certainly don't need to be indoctrinated into the ex-premie's view of the truth, as propounded by the loudest, most persuasive and most aggressive voices. "Me too" people tend to want to join. It is critical that all of us encourage thinking for ourselves, and encourage personal freedom in a world where we are often manipulated by religious leaders, politicians, government, the marketplace and the media, even when we declare we are free.
I found that a lot of those more heated discussions did not inform me -- they instead polarized views on both sides and we ended up becoming more entrenched in our views instead of softening them a bit and learning from each other. Not the environment for me, and I'm glad it has changed as of late.
I understand what you are saying about taking time off from these discussions, however. There is other stuff that does not get done!
xoxoxo
Francesca
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